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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

If God is moral then religion is irrelevent to salvation

"Universalism: If there is a Good God, Everyone Must Go to Heaven" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

I agree

Beautifully written. I am in total agreement with everything you said.

Re: I DON'T agree

To reject Jesus Christ, you are determining your own future in hell, an eternal torture where you can't escape. Believe me, some people thing this life can be hell, well imagine a place where you'll feel like your skin is being ripped from your bones and you are in complete agony, you'll scream out for help and no one will help you, because you brought this on yourself. Sure, some of your friends might be there too, but believe me they won't be able to help you down there, and once you're there, there's no escaping it. Eternity is quite a while, the human mind can't even grasp the extent of it. All you have to do is accept that you are a sinner and understand that God loved you so much he sent his son to die for you to cover the price of your sins so you could live in heaven with him. Isn't that much easier than believing there's no God and ending up down there? Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit. If you were a believer in Jesus Christ, you would have the Holy Spirit show you in little things every day that prove that God exists.

Re: I DON'T agree (Anonymous) Expand
Re: I DON'T agree (Anonymous) Expand
Re: I DON'T agree (Anonymous) Expand


hey dude
best thing is not to think about it too much. i have spent 32 years tring to figure out what religion and how we should live but i felt the same but everything seems to contradict time and time again.
now the only thing i didnt do was read the Quran in arabic as i couldnt speak the language
funny enough after learning it i realised every arabic version is the same word to word in every version
and after stressing my brain i could not pick up a single thing that didnt make sense.

i am muslim now living a normal happy life and loving every minute
this doesnt mean islam is for you.
but Boy it changed alot about the way i think.

to be honest all i had to realise was if i have a question ill go by the book
hey we all do right?

all these people who preach!!!!!!! its pants
they change religion to a form that is convenient to them.
never follow anyone. check out the Quran Dude
its one hell of a message.
never will you read anything that makes so much sense.
dont try to imagine it as its beyond that bro.
All the Best J>C

I'm familiar with the Koran, and the historical problems that surround it's formation in the first place. How do you know that, of the various conflicting canons that various Imams had collected, much of the time for blatant political reasons, that the Koran we have is either complete or accurate to Muhammed's word? It's got the same historical problems, therefore, as the Christian Bible, however wise it's advise is.

Re: logic (Anonymous) Expand


one explanation for religion that has started to make more sense in my mind is that we are just tools for the exploration of ourselves and the universe all combined in one as god, and being infinitely intricate. religion is something we made up in our minds to keep us interested in life and to continue the pursuit of truth. there are no answers, just questions that lead to more questions that lead to more questions. i don't know if it will ever end or if i want it to. but i think i am with everyone is saying that i just want to know the "truth" which in my opinion may not even exist which is hard to take in. the pursuit is what makes us alive, human, and wonderful


I've spent some time reading several of your articles, and have come to the conclusion that you need to look into what these religions really teach. You made several points saying that the three large monotheistic belief systems believe such and such a way. Several points were made about these religions regarding free will, moral and illogical decisions, the logicality of God, the limitation of mans knowledge, etc. that are not held to by either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, and several of these arguments were illogical from any informed point of view. You drew way to many uninformed conclusions, which is fine if this website was created for the purpose of influencing more uninformed people, but if you want to be taken seriously you need to rethink a considerable amount of your material.
Also, many of your arguments against God are written with the idea that God owes us something. You take the position that God would be bound to reveal Himself to us, that He cannot judge us according to beliefs; but must judge according to action alone, and that God is bound by human logic. If God could be summed up and understood for all that He is by human logic alone, than that is an exeedingly small God. God would not be (and could not be), bound by human logic. Just because we think that something has to be understood a certain way doesn't mean God is bound to opperate in that way. If you Have any comments, you may e-mail me at Sa-an@juno.com


I enjoyed your writing on "If God was Moral." Yet I found something blatantly wrong with it. You state a lot of times that if God does this or God does that, it is "immoral." Yet who are you to judge what is immoral and what isn't. Who gave you that authority? If there was a God, do you think it is possibile that his moral code might be different from ours? Thus, morality can not be used to decide who gets into heaven, simply because morality has ceased to be objective and appears to be relative. What if another person has a different morality than you? Who is to say that you are right? Whose morality do we judge him on? If everyone was judeged on their own morality then woudlnt everyone get into heaven...even murders who think they are moral?

Just a few pondering thoughts but I really did enjoy your writing.

You ask, "who are you to judge" and "who gave you that authority". This is in my opinion the same question and the answer is, according to the monotheist religions at least, a human with free will. Free will, if we have it, gives each of us the authority to question anything that we feel needs to be questioned. If you and I do not have the authority to question then you and I do not have free will. Every human at the appoximate age of 2 years having gained the ability to speak begins to ask why to the point that they drive their parents crazy. Why, why, why until the parents, if they are intelligent say I don't know or if they are unintelligent say because I said so, end of discussion.
we all go through this phase because contrary to the christian view that we are born guilty of adam and eve's sin of the knowledge of good and evil, we are not born with any knowledge. we learn by questioning.
You seem to suggest that to question is wrong however I would suggest that it was a good thing that people questioned the validity of slavery, throwing children into volcanos in order to ensure a fertile crop etc. If someone hadn't questioned those things knowing full well they would be ridiculed (if they were lucky, tortured and murdered if they were not)you and I would have been born into a world where that was acceptible. Fine if you are the master, not so good if your the slave.
your second point is that god may have a different morality than humans. For myself that is no different than government saying, we can but you can't or you telling your child I can rape you but you shouldn't do it to your kids when you have children. If it is wrong, it is wrong. This is separate (in my opinion of course)from saying you shouldn't do this because you are not mature enough to fully understand the full implications of a particular course of action and that when you have shown the proper intillectual growth I will permit you to do what I once told you not to. The christian philosiphy to which this discussion is focused doesn't imply that god forbids certain actions until we are able to comprehend the full consequences of those actions. It says I (god) can and you (humans) can't. Children rarly listen to their parents telling them not to do something they see their parents doing. If God holds me to a certain moral standard, I hold him/her/it/they to the same standard. "because I said so" doesn't wash.
your third point is basically "If everyone was judged on their own morality then wouldn't everyone get into heaven...even murders who think they are moral?"
As I understand it murderers and for that matter arsonists, pedophiles, theives etc can go to heaven, according to the christians, should they accept Jesus as their personal savior. Now they don't get in just because they believed their actions to be moral but the fact that otherwise just people go to hell because they don't state they love jesus is what causes questioning people to go, you know what, that doesn't sound right.
If the Christian bible is an accurate description of God and heaven, I stand as a rebel insurgent who refuses to be his slave and in the human tradition of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (at least until our common enemy is no longer a threat) then lucifer is my ally. Slightly off topic but I am amused by the fact that the bible repeatedly refers to how bad the devil is but whenever children are being murdered it is by god directly or by angels under his authority and not Satan. Hmmm..

Couldn't agree more

Well written, pretty much mirrors my thoughts on the matter. One of the issues that always confused me about religion was how are you supposed to choose one religion over another? There's no reasonable way of choosing as far as i'm concerned and, as i like to think of myself as a resonable person, i therefore have to dismiss all types of religion. I guess that makes me an atheist

God loves you!

I agree that if someone never had a chance to hear of Jesus Christ, then it would be immoral for the Lord to not let them into heaven. But God told us in the bible that everyone would hear of Jesus Christ. And if they did not, he would judge them accordingly.

You have to agree that Christianity isnt just another quacky religion, I would advise going to google(or yahoo,ect.), and searching for archaelogical, prophesitcal, and other proofs of the Bible.

Once you think its not just another stupid religion, this is to you.

Getting to heaven is like jumping to the moon. You can try all you like, but its never gonna happen. Once you've sinned ONCE, your not good enough to get into heaven. Good deeds should be done, but you cant do anything that would make up for trillions of years of life in happiness.
So your doomed, right? NO, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.". Jesus died, for YOU. He was nailed up on a cross by his hands. And before he died, he said "Father, forgive them"

All you have to do is accept jesus as your saviour, and ask him to forgive you of your sins. Romans 10:9-10 says "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved".

That's it, its that simple. Just make a simple prayer to Jesus Christ. You can do it right now, anytime, anywhere. God loves you, and accepts your for who you are.

God, I invite you into my life right now. Jesus, please forgive me of my sins. Im sorry for all the things I've done wrong. Please come into my heart, Jesus. In Jesus name, Amen.

Ive been a christian all my life, but its always been nothing to me, I lied, cursed, thought bad thoughts. I could never even name all the bad things I've done. About a year ago, i started looking at porn. That was the absolute low, i just felt so bad, i cant explain how i felt, but i hated it. I just ignored God. I stopped looking at porn, started agin, stopped, started, stopped, failed agin. I stopped once and for all eventually. But God forgave me of all my sins, because i know Jesus died for me. Praise the lord.

(Or spit in the face of the one who died for you, curse him and spend your life trying to make excuses and lies so you can drink your beer, smoke your weed, look at your porn, ect.)

Check out other websites


It sounds like you are well intentioned and and sincere as aposed to some who use their beliefs to look down on others so when I critique your comments I am not doing it in a deliberatly antagonistic way. Even for myself a comment sounds better in the head than when it comes out of the mouth and once you hit send it's out.
first of all, "god told us in the bible that everyone would hear of Jesus Christ. And if they did not, he would judge them accordingly"? Now, I'm not sure of the passage(s) that you refer to but there is a obvious problem when you state in the same sentence that everyone will hear of jesus BUT some won't and will be judged accordingly. Come on john. Which ever MAN wrote the bible could have easily wrote "some will live and died without having heard the name of Jesus. Of, these, those who were just will not be denied the glory of God for they were righteous" or words to that effect. Either EVERYONE will hear the name of jesus or they won't. God didn't write that book. Men did. No God, even a minor one would make such a contradictory statement.
Next- "Once you've sinned ONCE, your not good enough to get into heavenbut you cant do anything that would make up for trillions of years of life in happiness."
My understanding is that, according to your bible we are BORN sinners. Now, I don't have kids yet but when I do, my kids are going to sin (make mistakes)Even though I will specifically tell them not too. I know it already, I even know what they are going to do and the lies they are going to tell to avoid getting in trouble because it is the same ones you and I told our parents unaware that our parents did the exact same thing. When they hit billy, or take susie's ball without asking I'll punish them but unlike the christian god I won't hold it against them for all eternity, leaving them to writhe in twisted anguish till the end of time. Just Parents use no more force than fits the offence and only until the child, if not completey understanding why something is wrong, that it is unacceptable and will be punished in the hopes that eventually they will refrain from doing it not out of fear of punishment but a general realization that it is wrong. Brutal parents use excessive force for the most minor of transgressions.
Four times you have suggsted that we need to accept jesus when by your own admission those who haven't heard of jesus can get salvation by deeds alone. I find that problematic. Two years ago the Governemnt of brazil, in the course of chopping down the rain forest found 2 previously undiscovered tribes of humans. According to your logic then, all the previous generations of these tribes have a chance of getting to heaven without accepting jesus but every future generation including those alive right now do not.Those current generations will quite natuarlly refuse to reject their traditions and adopt some foreign religion and in many cases will burn in hell, languish in purgatory etc(the majority of south americans refer to themselves as christians and there is little doubt in my mind the government and/or so called "missionaries" have taken steps to save the heathen's souls).

Re: God loves you! (Anonymous) Expand
W.r.t. your original page, you write:

'if people who have had no chance in their lives to learn of Jesus or Muhammed can enter heaven after they die then revealed religion is pointless and wrong. If such innocent and unfortunate people cannot enter heaven then God is immoral.'

What if no-one is innocent, regardless of what they believe?

You also write:

'our moral choices are more important than the religion we choose'

What if our actions are inextricably linked to what we believe? Many people who believe in God would say that God is the source of their knowledge of what is morally right and morally wrong. Perhaps the best way to know what someone believes is by their actions...

I have been reading the comments from others posted about your essay and i have a further thought i have to add. If God is Moral in his own way , a way that we perhaps do not understand (as suggested by a christian himself) then how is it that these same morals are the ones taught in the bible or the Quran? Surely these guidelines are the same as what god is/believes and should effect whether you go to heaven or not. Also if these arent the morals we should be adhering to either God is making us believe something which has no connection to the final solution or heaven as a human being or there is no point drawing paralells between the two.
In the end no one will ever know what to truely believe and will tend to believe something which satifys their own need to question who they are. This can be a cry for help, a family tradition, or the need to believe there is something more out there. For me religion is a constant never ending web of contradictions. I am speaking from a relatively knowlegeable perspective don't get me wrong here, i have studied the meaning behind both the Quran and the Bible and i still feel the same. I think that more often they just control society by producing a purpose for people not valid answers .At the same time the religions unite them which is to me frightning as belief cannot be proved therefore never bringing a conclusion to the destruction it causes demonstrated by the large number of religious wars the world has seen.
One final point is that Religion although it cannot be proved has caused many ways of thinking to be entrenched in our modern day society whether true or not. A person cannot be moral if they arent religious (not true)and that we are all born into sin (not true) being some of the most influential and poignant cause for social alienation in the world for today. We are all the same, we are all going to the same place and i don't need someone to tell me personally what is right or wrong because i know what is humane. Maybe we should all just be human and stop looking to the skies for answers.

hey folks, sorry if i'm spoiling the mood here but this seems a little ridiculous to me. The only "proof" we have of god or jesus' existence is one pile of documents written by (forgive the expression) God knows who, several thousands of years ago. I can see why people in the distant past could easily be persuaded to believe wholeheartedly in this nonsense, but it is beyond me how educated well-rounded people can still believe in this superstituous ballony. The Bible (and other religious writings of various religions) may form the basis of our moral codes today, but these are mostly common sense and surely we can forego all the superstitious nonsense and intolerance that has cost the people of the earth so dearly.

(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand


I love the website by far the most intelligent and all rounded thinker i have read from in a long time, I agree totally with everything, and have had the same opinion for years, beliefs are a strange thing, you can believe in god or mohammad, or you can believe in the tooth fairy,not one human can say 100% which is right or wrong morally to believe in, another thing i dont understand, with the bible or the quran, these are the fundamental evidences that man can see his or her religeon (evidence),yet through time if they dont like bits they just change them, like women becomming priests, or a number of other things, like christianity or chatholicism how can you just interpret the word of God in different ways,i think people are lazy and are trying to make whatever it is they do throughout their life morally correct by slowly changing religeon where they see fit,there are very few people on earth who (not to use a pun) but follow religeon religously.but just want a cause to fight for,which is a whole another issue i wont get into,I think people in general just need to CHILL OUT, the almighty whoever that is didnt put us here to stress.
sorry for rambling.

sorry i forgot

just to mix things up, if electricity was only found in the last hundred or so years, does that mean it has'nt been around since the begging of time??!?!
just because we have not got hard proof of god or not yet been taught or learned the higher intelligence to trully understand religeon, does not mean that at some point in the future this will happen, but if you are a religeous fanatic you cant sit around waiting for that day,to say i told you so, but that is where the problem lies,
its a never ending thought of " yes he does.....No he doesn't....."

Re: sorry i forgot

Er, there is a reason that we don't have any hard proof, you know, same as the reason we don't have hard proof of tooth fairies, santa claus or the Easter Bunny.


I'm sorry, but nowhere in catholic doctrine does it say that if you have not heard of God you are going to hell. Our fate when we die lies with God.

How Unfair?

To go to heaven you must recognise Jesus as the son on god. So basically, if you're not a Christian then you burn in fires of hell for eternity.

Also, if Hitler recognized Jesus as the son of god would he live in luxury for eternity?

Anyone else see this as unfair?

Lets start at the beginning..

“If God is moral, everyone has a chance to enter Heaven.”

If we begin from the point that our existence started from God then the opinion that matters is Gods.

No parent would let their child without any guidance set the rules for its rewards and then let the child decide if they had passed or not. Guidance from God is required and if you follow a religion it is provided.

If we begin from the point that no God exists - then the only opinion that matters is the most powerful in your circumstance, Government, business, society, your boss, yourself etc.

So you come to a point of faith - the things I see, think and feel lead me to believe in God - or not.

“We do not know which religion is correct.”

This is like saying we do not know which form of exercise is best - So let’s not do any, or let’s reject those that are currently available and start our own method on what feels good to us.

And yet you say "Moral Choice" and "For the good of society and myself" this implies that there is inherent in everyone the ability to choose and recognize good and bad. But if there is no God then all of those values can only be relative. In this argument you can have any society doing whatever it likes and as long as it works and is stable it - in the main - must be good.

If there is no God – there can be no fixed morality therefore no scale of good and evil only relative good or evil.

If there is a God then we are back to the child telling the parent what the rules are.

The point of religion is to find and foster a relationship with God. The same as a form of exercise starts a relationship with your body that hopefully leads to improvement. You are more likely to get a benefit from a guided form of exercise than not.

“I haven't found a logical or experience-based evidence that God exists”

I cannot and never have been able to see those clever 3D pictures using repeating patterns on a 2D page, yet others I trust and strangers I don’t know assure me that they can and many are convinced they can teach me. None has yet succeeded and my own desire has not being able to get me there either.

No one has successfully explained to me how they work and to date I can’t prove that they do – I’ve only their word.

My own experience says that they do not.

But hang on there’s a chap down the road who sees pink elephants everywhere.

Therefore I must reject them all as having no validity? These must all be having similar experiences? and I therefore cannot and will not judge what it might make sense for me to try and what doesn’t?

There are some things that you yourself cannot prove and in those cases people have to make judgements – sometime on things they cannot perceive.

“Our will to do good is more important than the knowledge we have about the world, it is obvious that our moral choices are more important than the religion we choose.”

My child decides that it is good to keep his/her pet clean and therefore puts it in the washing machine not knowing it will kill it. In this case the child’s will is good - but was that more important than its knowledge? - I don’t think so.

The child decides to keep the Pet dirty because it doesn’t know how to look after it properly. In this case the child’s will to do good could be argued to be good because they are causing no direct harm, but it could still be a bad choice. Good will is still not shown to be more important than knowledge.

The child thinks it may be a good idea to clean the pet but recognises its own lack of knowledge and seeks it. This seems to me to the best approach. They may find out its a bad idea to clean it or a good idea to clean it and how to do that.


We cannot impose our morals on God. His judgement may be based on our actions, our beliefs and on other factors. Our beliefs are in our control – God exists or God does not exist - all religions flow from this. It may well matter what our beliefs are. Knowledge and the search for it are perhaps as important as having “Good Will”.

How I feel

well first of all im still a new christian but I do believe that i've been lead to read the bible and to believe in jesus. Going back about 3 or 4 months ago I remember asking god to show me if he is really there and that I would love for him to be a part of my life. I'm sure alot of people do this but when I did it I was really open hearted about it, I mean I really ment it from the inside and I was willing to give up everything I thought I knew about if there was a god or wasn't, just please show me god because I feel empty. During that week and there after I cant count how many new people I met that invited me to go to there chruch, I met a girl that got me involved with a great business and then she ran into someone who once again invited both of us to his chruch, the agreement was that we went to his chruch for at least one mass then he would check out our business op. so I went to the mass and it turned out to be a special day when everyone can go up and get blessed and clean the spirit, to let jesus know than your willing to try to be even harder then before to be a better person. alot of people at this chruch went up and started speaking in toungs, what really shocked me was when the girl that got me involved in the business went up and for the first time startes talking in toungs. I was invited to go up but for some reason I didn't go, at this point I had a feeling from inside that kinda made me feel like I was saposed to go up there. a few weeks later I went to a business conferance 3 days all togeather 2 days on how to be sucessfull in business and the last day an optional mass. At the mass once again I along with about 200 people maby even more were invited to the alter to be saved, it really felt as if I were being called and after all I did ask to connect with god so I went up. We all followed the prayer and right away almost everyone started crying, smiling, looking peacefull, I almost let out the tears but for some reason I held them back. You know some of us are too macho to cry in public in front of all the ladies but something special did happen that day and the priest, pastor (im not really sure which one) said to be carefull because the devil will try to take it away as soon as he had a chance. Later on that day on my way home a lady said "I can feel it" I turned around looked at her, she was sitting there with her daughter so I said "huh" im guessing with a funny facial expression, she sais " I can feel the spirit, you must have just been born again" it was at that point that god in his own way was letting me know what happend was the real deal. secconds later a religious song about Jesus started to play on the bus terminal speaker. maby a week later I was sitting in the park and a lady walks up to me and gives me a bible. Now there, I can really go on much further with lots of things that just kept happening after but it all only can happen with an open mind and heart, for some reason I felt as if I was saposed to let you all know this and mostly the main guy that put all this web site togeather. -thank you, please reach me if you want- rican-nyc@hotmail.com