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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

If God is moral then religion is irrelevent to salvation

"Universalism: If there is a Good God, Everyone Must Go to Heaven" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

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I enjoyed your writing on "If God was Moral." Yet I found something blatantly wrong with it. You state a lot of times that if God does this or God does that, it is "immoral." Yet who are you to judge what is immoral and what isn't. Who gave you that authority? If there was a God, do you think it is possibile that his moral code might be different from ours? Thus, morality can not be used to decide who gets into heaven, simply because morality has ceased to be objective and appears to be relative. What if another person has a different morality than you? Who is to say that you are right? Whose morality do we judge him on? If everyone was judeged on their own morality then woudlnt everyone get into heaven...even murders who think they are moral?

Just a few pondering thoughts but I really did enjoy your writing.

You ask, "who are you to judge" and "who gave you that authority". This is in my opinion the same question and the answer is, according to the monotheist religions at least, a human with free will. Free will, if we have it, gives each of us the authority to question anything that we feel needs to be questioned. If you and I do not have the authority to question then you and I do not have free will. Every human at the appoximate age of 2 years having gained the ability to speak begins to ask why to the point that they drive their parents crazy. Why, why, why until the parents, if they are intelligent say I don't know or if they are unintelligent say because I said so, end of discussion.
we all go through this phase because contrary to the christian view that we are born guilty of adam and eve's sin of the knowledge of good and evil, we are not born with any knowledge. we learn by questioning.
You seem to suggest that to question is wrong however I would suggest that it was a good thing that people questioned the validity of slavery, throwing children into volcanos in order to ensure a fertile crop etc. If someone hadn't questioned those things knowing full well they would be ridiculed (if they were lucky, tortured and murdered if they were not)you and I would have been born into a world where that was acceptible. Fine if you are the master, not so good if your the slave.
your second point is that god may have a different morality than humans. For myself that is no different than government saying, we can but you can't or you telling your child I can rape you but you shouldn't do it to your kids when you have children. If it is wrong, it is wrong. This is separate (in my opinion of course)from saying you shouldn't do this because you are not mature enough to fully understand the full implications of a particular course of action and that when you have shown the proper intillectual growth I will permit you to do what I once told you not to. The christian philosiphy to which this discussion is focused doesn't imply that god forbids certain actions until we are able to comprehend the full consequences of those actions. It says I (god) can and you (humans) can't. Children rarly listen to their parents telling them not to do something they see their parents doing. If God holds me to a certain moral standard, I hold him/her/it/they to the same standard. "because I said so" doesn't wash.
your third point is basically "If everyone was judged on their own morality then wouldn't everyone get into heaven...even murders who think they are moral?"
As I understand it murderers and for that matter arsonists, pedophiles, theives etc can go to heaven, according to the christians, should they accept Jesus as their personal savior. Now they don't get in just because they believed their actions to be moral but the fact that otherwise just people go to hell because they don't state they love jesus is what causes questioning people to go, you know what, that doesn't sound right.
If the Christian bible is an accurate description of God and heaven, I stand as a rebel insurgent who refuses to be his slave and in the human tradition of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (at least until our common enemy is no longer a threat) then lucifer is my ally. Slightly off topic but I am amused by the fact that the bible repeatedly refers to how bad the devil is but whenever children are being murdered it is by god directly or by angels under his authority and not Satan. Hmmm..

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