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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

If God is moral then religion is irrelevent to salvation

"Universalism: If there is a Good God, Everyone Must Go to Heaven" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)

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Lets start at the beginning..

“If God is moral, everyone has a chance to enter Heaven.”

If we begin from the point that our existence started from God then the opinion that matters is Gods.

No parent would let their child without any guidance set the rules for its rewards and then let the child decide if they had passed or not. Guidance from God is required and if you follow a religion it is provided.

If we begin from the point that no God exists - then the only opinion that matters is the most powerful in your circumstance, Government, business, society, your boss, yourself etc.

So you come to a point of faith - the things I see, think and feel lead me to believe in God - or not.

“We do not know which religion is correct.”

This is like saying we do not know which form of exercise is best - So let’s not do any, or let’s reject those that are currently available and start our own method on what feels good to us.

And yet you say "Moral Choice" and "For the good of society and myself" this implies that there is inherent in everyone the ability to choose and recognize good and bad. But if there is no God then all of those values can only be relative. In this argument you can have any society doing whatever it likes and as long as it works and is stable it - in the main - must be good.

If there is no God – there can be no fixed morality therefore no scale of good and evil only relative good or evil.

If there is a God then we are back to the child telling the parent what the rules are.

The point of religion is to find and foster a relationship with God. The same as a form of exercise starts a relationship with your body that hopefully leads to improvement. You are more likely to get a benefit from a guided form of exercise than not.

“I haven't found a logical or experience-based evidence that God exists”

I cannot and never have been able to see those clever 3D pictures using repeating patterns on a 2D page, yet others I trust and strangers I don’t know assure me that they can and many are convinced they can teach me. None has yet succeeded and my own desire has not being able to get me there either.

No one has successfully explained to me how they work and to date I can’t prove that they do – I’ve only their word.

My own experience says that they do not.

But hang on there’s a chap down the road who sees pink elephants everywhere.

Therefore I must reject them all as having no validity? These must all be having similar experiences? and I therefore cannot and will not judge what it might make sense for me to try and what doesn’t?

There are some things that you yourself cannot prove and in those cases people have to make judgements – sometime on things they cannot perceive.

“Our will to do good is more important than the knowledge we have about the world, it is obvious that our moral choices are more important than the religion we choose.”

My child decides that it is good to keep his/her pet clean and therefore puts it in the washing machine not knowing it will kill it. In this case the child’s will is good - but was that more important than its knowledge? - I don’t think so.

The child decides to keep the Pet dirty because it doesn’t know how to look after it properly. In this case the child’s will to do good could be argued to be good because they are causing no direct harm, but it could still be a bad choice. Good will is still not shown to be more important than knowledge.

The child thinks it may be a good idea to clean the pet but recognises its own lack of knowledge and seeks it. This seems to me to the best approach. They may find out its a bad idea to clean it or a good idea to clean it and how to do that.


We cannot impose our morals on God. His judgement may be based on our actions, our beliefs and on other factors. Our beliefs are in our control – God exists or God does not exist - all religions flow from this. It may well matter what our beliefs are. Knowledge and the search for it are perhaps as important as having “Good Will”.

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