Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
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Crucifixion Facade

"The Christian Crucifixion and Plan of Atonement Makes no Sense and is Immoral" by Vexen Crabtree (2002)


Logical on flaws of Christian belief

(Anonymous)
Very good article.

Knowing God

(Anonymous)
The way to know God before Christ's incarnation(God the Son becoming man)was through the law of the old testament, in keeping it's strict laws was the way to please God and to know Him.Those who worshiped and kept the law of the one true God would be saved. However there are verses in the bible that say that people will be judged according to the light they have recieved. So those who had never heard of God were judged differently. Everyone has a conscience and everyone knows right from wrong and so I believe they would have been judged according to that. Now, A.D., however, most people have heard of Jesus and so are accountable if they reject Him. Jesus died for our sins as God is good and being good means being just and punishing evil. But because God is good, he is also gracious and so in Jesus death the demand for justice was met as Jesus took our punishment and Grace was shown to us, those who follow Christ, as he paid our penalty for us. When Christ died, his death counted for all time, even for those people who lived before his incarnation, that's why one may argue that people had life then and that all of creation and humanity wasn't done awaty with, but given the chance to follow God, in the Old Testament through obseving the strict laws and through the New Testament through faith in Christ and following him.
How could could God allow his own Son to die you may say? Well, many people forget or don't realise how painful it must have been for God the Father to watch his own Son murdered! So, Jesus, is not the only one who suffered. Also, for people to be saved from Hell which is total seperation from Go. Which is in fact seperation from Love, Life, Joy, Laughter, Peace and well being which onlt leaves pain to endure, pain without relief. God desperately did not want us to endure that for eternity, and so wanted to spare us that, and the only way was through his death.( Jesus is God also, Father, Son(JESUS)and Holy Spirit, make up God). The good news is that Jesus defeated Hell and is seated with God the father. You say how did God allow him to suffer, the answer was it was the only way! And Jesus was willing to make the sacrife rather than lose us for eternity. You cause God to suffer everytime you reject all he has done for you. Imaging you gave your life or lost a limb in order to save somebody and they rejected you, even denied it ever happened, after what you had suffered for them, that is what you are doing.
To conclude; It is only natural to question things, but know that God loves you, so much so that he would rather go to Hell for you than to heaven without you. Which he did do, but in victory overcame.
God bless you and I hope you will one day choose God!

and thinking themselves wise they became fools.heretics.

God Help You

(Anonymous)
I stumbled upon your page while reading about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I was disgusted with the article and found no factual evidence in it to prove what you say to be true. There is, however, numerous historical accounts of Jesus Christ and his crucifixion that not only prove that Jesus was truly divine, but also that he was crucified. There are also medical descriptions that prove that Jesus' death on the cross could have and did occur in hours rather than days. For instance, the beating that Jesus endured was far worse than that of a normal crucifixion. Jesus suffered from massive blood and tissue loss due to the severe lashings, the crown of thorns being placed on his head, which caused severe bleeding, and carrying the cross (although only for a short time) only added to the plethra of wounds that Jesus had already suffered. Why don't you read an account of an actual crucifixion by a real doctor and they will show this to be a fact. And even if Jesus did not die the physical death, He possessed the power to give up His spirit unto the Father, which the Gospels account; (Luke 23:46) Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. It was at this time that Jesus chose to leave His human body, the time that He chose. I know that it may be difficult to not question some of the teachings of the Bible, that is where faith comes into play. Please reevaluate you faith and your beliefs, and give Jesus a chance to work his miracle of love in your life.

THAT WAS JUST SAD!! "God did not need the crucifixion for any other reason than public relations." WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. YOUR REASONING THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE ARTICAL WAS PATHETIC. YOU NEED HELP!!!

Then please enlighten me and other readers with your own correcting logic and thoughts, shouting only makes you look immature and desperate. Assuming that "I need help" and that you're a god-fearing do-gooder, why don't you try to help rather than throwing a hissy fit?

God still loves you (Anonymous) Expand
You're an idiot

Crucifixion of Christ

(Anonymous)
If all that you say is so true then why is the Bible the most known and most bought book in the world, where would all the accounts come from if its all fake and never happened. Go watch the passion of Christ you idiot!!!

Re: Crucifixion of Christ

Maybe because everyone believes it, it must be true? If that was true, we would still think the world was flat, the sun rotated around the Earth, etc... unfortunately for religions, modern knowledge displaces ancient beliefs. Tough shit for the believers... time to move on, dude, and face the facts.

Christ died for You Vexen

(Anonymous)
I am sorry to hear that some people did not respond in a kind fashion to your comments about the crucifixion. I wish that you would trust in the Eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ so that you could experience the forgiveness of sins and eternal life and real joy and be released from your unfortunate anomosity.

I must say that I wish you had some solid support for your claims. Even a casual reading of the Old Testament would recognize that the Savior, Immanuel, Messiah, King was coming. They knew who Jesus was. He was known long before His birth. Read Luke 1 - 3. Mary, Elizabeth and Simeon knew that the long awaited hope of the world had finally come. This is why he says, "Mine eyes have seen thy salvation." It was perfect timing. "But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth His Son made of a woman, made under the law."

Please consider some honest research. Your thoughts are emotional and only based upon your ideas. However, your ideas are only as good as the next guys. Why would anyone buy into what you believe? It is wise to have a source of faith. The Word of God could open up your eyes. You only do not believe because you choose not to believe.

Sincerely,

Rev. Bryan Samms
Ringgold, LA

Re: Christ died for You Vexen

The Jews are still waiting for the saviour detailed in the Old Testament to arrive; there were many self-proclaimed and indirectly nominated saviours in first century Judea, only some Jews accepted that the stories been told about someone called Jesus were true, the majority rejected them, and NT accounts actually tell us of some of these "false prophets", as do Roman sources.

That you accept one of these false prophets is a problem for you to solve and confirm with evidence or argument - the ball is in your court - so try me...

MISPLACED HOPE

(Anonymous)
When God created us He gave us 'free will' and we can live any kind of life we want to .. However, if our hope is not centered on Jesus Christ .. our soul isn't anchored there .. When Christ was crucified it wasn't merely another death of another man with no saving significance .. His death had a purpose .. God sent His Son to die for each one of us because He loved us ..
Romans 5:8.. 'God demonstrates His own love for us in this .. While we were still sinners Christ died for us' ..
THERE IS NO OTHER HOPE.. Why don't you trust Christ as your Saviour.. He will take your life and make it anew ... Kay Murray

You needs help

(Anonymous)
You are insane, the old testament foretells us of Jesus, in that time they have lived by the Law which is the ten commandments. Jesus came and died for our sins now we are living by grace he has sum up the law of the old testament "Love thy neighbour as thyself. The bible said he came to his own and they rejected him (the Jews was his own what did they do they have rejected Christ and crucified him). It is very sad that you and the Jews are still waiting for the messiah when you have crucified him, and is driving down the nails in his hand each day that you are rejecting him.

I felt sorry for you, but it is not to late surrender your life to Jesus and he will see you through. Have you ever seriously thing why God took on humanity left his glory and came down to earth died for us, such great love I will be praying for you. God bless and keep you.

Right on...

(Anonymous)
Top piece of work, both this article and the site in general. I've been doing research for some months now, reading both theist and atheist sites, and comparing both the information within each and, perhaps more importantly, the *way* in which it is formulated, presented, and conclusions drawn.
The atheist sites are in general inquisitive, interested, reasonably un-biased and draw sensible conclusions from known data and facts, whilst bearing in mind the eternal possibilities of mild inaccuracy.
The theist sites are little short of maniacal preaching - "Look, I'm right - NO, REALLY I AM!" Any evidence that they cannot overcome is met with denial or insult, rather like small children (as are some of the comments and responses to your articles).
I am neither atheist nor theist - I believe in *something*, but not the insane ramblings of bigoted priests, nor the misguided myths within the so called 'Good Book'. The something I believe in is inside, and inexplicable.
Having the strength to admit that we don't know about God, or even if he exists, means everything. It allows people to simply move forward. Jesus is an icon, nothing more, and almost certainly a mythical one at that, a real man who was borrowed by the Church and turned into a 'Saviour' years after his death. If he is indeed in a 'Heaven' and looking down, I suspect he would be highly bemused and startled by the 2000 years of oppression, hypocricy and bigotry waged against mankind by the Church in 'His' name.

Re: Right on...

(Anonymous)
Honstly, I am not trying to be harsh by your post, but do you actually believe what you are saying? You actually believe that Jesus is just an icon of the church? That makes no sense whatsoever. Have you read the historical accounts of Jesus and other secular documents that tell of Jesus and his crucifixtion. That "something" you believe in is called God trying to shake you up man. He is trying to tell you to wake up, you know he is there and you can feel him but you do not want to be another hipocritic Christian that you have steriotyped. Just think about it and think with an open mind
Be prayin for you

Re: Right on... (Anonymous) Expand

Bravi to Site and arguments

(Anonymous)
I love the scholastic style arguments that appear in some of your "Contra." I felt like I could pick-up the summa theologica and get jiggy with you. I am an ex-christian. It is all so painfully simple. Good luck to you. Keep up the good news.

Re: Bravi to Site and arguments

(Anonymous)
How in the world can you be an ex-Christian? DO you not miss the comfort, security and rich promises that you once enjoyed? And if you did not you have to ask yourself if you really accepted Christ. You need to study a bit more before you make the rational comment that you are an ex Christian. Man, all I have to say, and you should know this, is that God is chillin and waiting for you with open arms. Prodigal Son.
Be prayin for you

Crucifixion

(Anonymous)
Hi - good to see someone actually thinking about a difficult subject, not just fulminating...some homework would have been good though...

Despite what is often 'quoted,' the bible does not teach that we are held accountable for Adam/Eve's sin...but for our own. ("death passed upon all...because all have sinned"). Old and New Testaments both specifically define God's response to us as being governed by how we live, the choices we make and what we do.No one else's.

May I make another comment? You pose a proposition that the crucifixion was not necessary because a God with absolute power could remove sin from humanity without needing this to occur. This is evidently not true since two things are needed here, not one. Resolution requires action for both the responsibility of wrong and for its consequeces. Responsibilty follows choice. Consequences follow acts. (And sometimes failure to act). A unilateral act by God takes no account of responsibilty and leaves consequences to take care of themselves. Besides all this it bears underlining that God has a far greater ambition than just the excluson of wrong, important as that may be. He is still looking for just - righteous, not just 'moral' - people. And you can't be righteous once the essential element of choice is removed. Neither can you be - as the bible describes God - at one and the same time both 'just, and the justifier' if you independently lift the results of every wrong but do nothing else. Something more is required - that is removing the consequences of wrong, without whitewashing it. That would be rather like returning Nixon's stolen papers from watergate and then announcing that since they were back, Nixon was an ok president. Both mercy and justice are required for complete resolution. If I steal a million pounds and squander it. Mercy could just 'let me off' but justice to those I had robbed would require I repaid the million or they remain robbed. In the only such transaction of its kind, God forgave me. That was mercy to to the robber. He insistested the debt be repaid. That was justice to the robbed. He volunteered to pay the million himself. That was compassion in anyone's book. Well, almost anyone's apparently. B.T.

Sin entered the world through ONE man

The Bible does teach that WE are punished because of the sins of others. You cited no verses, perhaps now is the time to get jiggy with the actual Biblical text?

For example; ""Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned!" (Rom. 5:12)"

It says "All sinned" because "death came to all men" because "death entered through sin" -> all sinned, because all die, and all that is because "sin entered the world through one man". Before that event there was no sin and no death. Do you disagree with that basic summary of the OT creation story?

God said to Adam, according to the author of Genesis, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree [...] cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. [...] By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.' (Gen. 3:14-19)

Etc. It didn't say "because everyone will sin, they will suffer according to the morality of accountability". It specifically says that all sin BECAUSE "of you", Adam. Not because of anything else; no free will, no accountability: Just an inherited, pass-on form of punishment from one generation to the next.

Do you still believe "the bible does not teach that we are held accountable for Adam/Eve's sin...but for our own"?

The Bible itself says that we ARE punished for their sins. The verses I just quoted are just for beginnings, you may well know that the Old Testament is *full* of verses where God punishes people for the sins of others. I dare you to tell me that it is otherwise!

Although you may well believe in a God that only allows suffering for peoples' own sins, the god of the old testament clearly punishes and creates evil for the descendents of those who sin, without any heed for 'accountability' or morality.

The Qur'an agrees with you

(Anonymous)
Dear Vexen

Have you read what Islam's take is on the crucifixion issue. Well, I am glad to see there are people like you out there who are not afraid to use their reason.

Peace

what?

(Anonymous)
you keep saying throughout that we are being punished for adam's sin, and that if heaven was so great and God wants us to go there, why don't we just go there.
firstly, it may be because of Adam that sin has entered this world, but on the final judgement day, it is YOUR sins that God will hold you accountable for. He will not say that 'Adam did this; you will pay', He will take your sins and all your wrongdoings against you. Jesus died and spent three days (or two depending how you look at it) in hell so that we may never have to experience that horror. All the sins that we have commited and deserve to suffer eternally for were taken on His back so that we never have to know what hell is like. And yes, God could just take away all the sins of the world and let them into heaven, but that would take away our free will. God is not after robots who are all in heaven becase He wants us to be there. He wants those in heaven who have freely chosen a relationship with Him and have chosen to serve Him out of the freedom granted to them. You can't deny that God is doing things today, miracles are happening, more and more people are coming to God through things happening today. It's not just people reading a book and thinking that's a nice idea. It's a real thing, that is happening today. God is moving in all the nations, no matter what anyone says.
I will keep praying for you. Anyone who has studied the Bible this much should see how great God is, but you have obviously chosen to harden your heart. If you think it's all fake, then you try praying, just a small prayer in your heart, and see what happens. I think you might be surprised.

No God

(Anonymous)
Shalom, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that there is no God at all from your line of reasoning. Just because you have proven that Christianity is a hoax, that does not prove that there is no God at all. That would be like saying that just because we know that Santa is a fairy tale, we can assume that Christianity is a hoax. That is just bad science, it might be an indication but we can not say that it is proof. One needs to prove all things on their own merits. We cannot throw out the baby with the bath water. We Jews do not believe in the pagan Christ god yet we believe in and worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Your logic is flawed as you only went so far as to prove that Christianity is a cruel hoax on the world with all its pagan trappings of Christmas and Easter and such, but you never disproved the Torah nor any of what the Christian world refers to as the "Old Testament", thus you have only proved that the Christian god does not exist, but not the God of the Jews, nor have you disproved the existance of any other gods for that matter. It looks as though you have a long way to go if you are to disprove the existance of all gods, especially the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. May Hashem be with you in your journey for the truth.

> Shalom, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion
> that there is no God at all from your line of reasoning.
> Just because you have proven that Christianity is a hoax,
> that does not prove that there is no God at all.

You are right.

Thankfully, I don't only have pages on Christianity (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity.html ) but also on the existence of God in general:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rm.html

These pages prove in many ways that there is no God, never was, and never will be. No religious book, written by mankind, can change the basic truth.

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