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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

Arguments for Christian Universalism

  1. Universalism
    Presents a series of arguments that if an all-powerful and benevolent God exists then Universalism must be true.
  2. </p>
  3. Argument for Universalism from the Parables of the Vineyard and Lost Sheep</p>
  4. We are judged by our moral choices, not by our religion
    Argues that if people who have had no chance in their lives to learn of Jesus or Muhammed can enter Heaven after they die then revealed religion is pointless and wrong. If such innocent and unfortunate people cannot enter Heaven then God is immoral.</p>
  5. The Mentally Disabled, Atheists and members of wrong religions
    Shows that if the mentally disabled can love God or can be accepted by God or can enter Heaven, then so can atheists and members of any religion.</p>

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Good reads, thanks. I enjoy that kind of logical debate.

On a totally different point, a while ago you offered a copy of the satanic bible to someone who got you somethign you wanted.

I didn't have what you were after, but I am interested in a copy of the Satanic Bible. Could you help me get a copy? I'll be glad to offer compensation for your trouble/time/cost.


Sure, we can probably sort something out.

The first... can you order it from amazon.co.uk?


If not... when are you next in the UK? If it's not for ages then I'll post you a copy and we'll work out the cost later! It's not expensive £6.40 or $8 retail price.

Heh, figure that..... I had no idea they carried it.
I could probably do that, although I'd prefer a personalised copy from a licensed Satanist. ;)
Lemme check for a bit, and otherwise it'd prolly be easiest if I ask Bruce or so to bring it over, pay you for it and I'll sort it out with him.


There is also a good article on Universalism at:

Re: Universalism

I'm so tired of these faulty assumptions. When people say that since God is all loving and benevolent that all will be saved. But people forget to mention that God is also perfectly just. People cannot be allowed into his presence because we have all sinned. The punishment for sin is death, but this is not the death of our bodies. It is a death that is described as an eternal absence from the perfect and loving God of creation. Anyone can twist an argument to say that God is immoral and hateful if he sends people to hell if they dont accept Jesus as their savior, but thats just the thing. We were all going to hell anyways and God out of his infinite love supplied us with a way to return to him. He in his perfect love has provided a gift and all we need to do is accept it. It is the people who look down at the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and tell God with there actions and beliefs that they will find another way in. But there isn't another way. God is Holy and perfect and we are not. He did more to supply mankind with a route to him then he did in the creation of the universe. And to say that people in the tribes and far off places that never heard of him, never had a chance well consider two things. First off everything thing came from God. Adam and Eve walked with God and spoke with Him. It was his decendants who CHOSE to walk away from Him. God did not walk away from them. Then after that mankind had another shot to follow him at the flood Noah and seven others who knew well enough God's commands and had even heard him speak had the opportunity to tell there children of this Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Eternal, All-Loving, and yes All-Just God. But again mankind decided to live their lives apart from him. Secondly, God chose the nation of Israel to display his power to the natiuons around them. When the nations followed His commands they were blessed and when the were rebelious the nation and land they had taken was cursed. There is nothing special about the Israelites, except they agreed to be the nation that God would show His sovereignty through. Imagine that when God sent the ten plagues upon the people of Eygpt, everyone should have bowed down and worshipped the True and Only God. However they are like almost every else alive today who blame and complain and continue to turn away from God. So to everyone who says that an All-Loving God would not send people to hell, consider for a moment that you knew someone was going to die a horrible death, someone who deserved to die, every day they committed crimes against you, and cursed you to your face. But you decided to save their live anyways. The only way you could do that though is to sacrifice your only child to provide a way oout of punishment for this person that deserves it. So after you do that the person turns to you and says, "Thanks but no thanks, I dont need you kid im gonna make it on my own. Or why did you sacrifice your child its not like anything bad was gonna happen to me?" Would you still take that evil person and hold them close and love them, if they refused to ask for forgiveness? I dont think so. We are all headed for a terrible punishment but that sacrifice has been made and those that TRULY accept it and ask for forgiveness will be forgiven. But those who refuse it, God will allow the judgement that they deserve come upon them. Which is perfect justice for the person who rejects perfect grace... I urge you to reject the satanic bible and read through the Holy Bible. What i have written is the truth not just a suggestion about how things might be... Please i urge you not to subject yourself to an eternity apart from God.

Kyle feel free to write me if you want Romanmeal98@yahoo.com

"The punishment for sin is death, but this is not the death of our bodies. It is a death that is described as an eternal absence from the perfect and loving God of creation."

Infinite punishment for finite sins is NOT a good example of what is just, Christian. Think about the type of god you've chosen to believe in very carefully.

Re: Universalism

Hi, vixen. I've read a lot of your comments. You are smart, wise, and make a lot of sense. However, I am wondering, are you a Satanist? I am wondering that because you seem to slanting toward a concept of God that makes Him out to be a bad pill. And that you have a tendency to refer to Him as an “it”. From what I understand of universalism, it seems to be at lest basically true. I could enlighten you about a few things. But I wonder if you really want to be. I know things about God that most don’t. Sounds arrogant. Even nuts. But be that that as it may. I have had my time wrestling with things of spiritual matters, and still have minor issues to tend with. But all the Big Questions have been answered for me. Now, reading your comments. Are you wanting to understand or just argue and vent

Vexen. Not vixen: I wasn't named after a female fox...


I don't believe in God, so I don't "slant" towards a concept of either a good or evil god. However, I do believe that if a God creator exists, it isn't good, but it might be neutral or evil.

Some reasoning as to why:

I refer to a single creator God as "it" because it would have no gender. Greek gods, and members of theorized pantheons of gods, normally do have gender so I refer to them as "him" or "her" accordingly. But most of the time when I talk of god in the singular I am refering to the genderless creator-god typical of Western and monotheistic religions.

I concur: Universalism must be true if there is a good god.

Sure, tell me about your ideas on God. But know that whenever you say "I KNOW", I trust you a little less. Every time you say "I THINK" or use rational logic, or admit /doubt/, then I trust you a little more. This is because I do not trust most people and I especially don't trust irrational metaphysics (meaning: Metaphysics that has no rational basis).

I seek to understand. I argue in order to understand.

And when I vent, I do so because I'm human.

Re: Universalism

Hello, again Vexen,. My apologies about misspelling your name.

You say you don't believe in or slant towards either an evil or good God, but then why do you affiliate yourself with a Satanic Church? Doesn’t such affiliation make you a believer of sorts? To hate a thing, even in concept, then the thing, or at lest the concept of it, must first be real to you.

The biggest thing I had to wrestle with was that the predominate Christian view of God, Jesus, and Church, and that religion today is evil and that the object of their worship would have to be evil too. Now that was a frightening and drastic concept for me to grasp and then accept as a Bible believing Christian that I always was, and still consider myself to be. Because such a thing would be considered by most of my evangelical peers to be a Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and it would be so IF they were right. But you and I both know that they are not right about that and a good many other things concerning the True Living God or the “it”, as you say.

It is believed in the more educated circles of Bible Students that the Greek and other pagan religions copied and then demented the concept of the True Living God into what they worshiped as gods and in fact there is slightly spoken of passage in Scripture where Jesus does admit, in-a-round-about-way that gods of the Pantheons did truly exist. So ascribing God a gender is not unfounded since His creations had gender. Gods, men, and animals all have gender, because God has gender. The “it” title you ascribe to God is an interesting one since you explain it that way. Although, I do hope you pardon my Evangelic Christian habit to regard such a title as less than the regality that I am comfortable ascribing to God. So I except reason for the title “it”, if that makes you comfortable. But I won’t use that title when referring to Him myself because I would be uncomfortable doing so.

Please explain how you think the creator-god of Western and monotheistic religion is genderless when all the information that I am aware of supports otherwise?

Universalism is a religion, and like all religions and myth there is some truth and a lot of nonsense. That is why, at lest to me, Fundamental Christianity is no different in the amount of genuine truth they know and share then Buddhist, Islamic, or even Satanic faiths. They are all equally full of crap or not. I know I sound like an atheist. But trust me, I am defiantly not. Even they got some things right too.

I’ll try to share my ideas I don’t get to share them often. They make me rather unpopular. But the truth is an unpopular business.

The only thing you need to trust about me is that I am completely convinced that I am right, Just like you appear to be completely convinced that you are. You don’t have to accept anything I say. I have to be the one to accept what I say and own it. I do know, at lest for myself that God is true and alive, and even more good than good, that Jesus is the Way, and that even in the end everyone, even you too, will agree and accept and be happy about it, however long that takes, which in my opinion, is only a mortal life-time. In spite of all the evidence to the contrary, God is more merciful and loving than you can possibly imagine, or even imagine yourself to be, if you were God, doing things in your perceived superior righteousness. Such as saying if you were God, you would not have created suffering, lack, evil, ect . . .

You said: “I seek to understand.”
My reply: “Why, unless it is to make you better?”

You also said: “I argue in order to understand.”
“You will, and you understand a great deal already. Although I don’t know if communicating with me will do that or not. But you and everybody else will, even if you must wait until the end of your lives. When I finally began to understand the truth a few years ago, I nearly went mad.”

Admitting that you have human short commings is the most honest and graceful thing I ever read from you, so far.

Re: Universalism

So with that all said, let me set the ground work of my faith:

I don’t believe THE BIBLE. The Bible has been mistranslated and misunderstood so many times and in so many ways, anybody who would put their trust in it would be a laughable fool. However; I do believe IN the Bible. What I mean is that only a few people know there real truth of it and that truth doesn’t come from the Bible it comes from God Himself. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit behind the Words of the Bible, is what counts. The things and words of the Bible where their meanings are hidden in plain sight. If the masses of Christendom were to ever understand, they would beat thier chests AND WAIL at what fools they are. That they never knew the real truth, never could distinguish between being Born Again and being saved, never knew the truth about life, death, hell, the lake of Fire and so many other things. That they were called, but not chosen. Called to be custodians of the Word, but preaching Christ in a Pretense. Thinking so foolishly that they can choose to be Reborn of God’s Spirit, as if He would consult with them before hand. Not understanding that while they were yet unborn, they were never consulted to be born of the lesser form of humanity. So they would think that they would be consulted by God to be reborn into something Greater? What fools they are. My Mother and father never asked me if I wanted to born, yet I would think, even presume that God would wait upon me to decide to be born into something more than that? It is all up to God to decide and if and how and when.

Death is the same as being asleep only deeper, not a place of unending torture or bliss.
According to Christianity there are two places ascribed to people to go after this life. Heaven or Hell.

The Bible originally describes Hell as just merely being the grave. Over the years and centuries Hell morphed into this place were you spend all time without any end, being burned; suffering agonies beyond anything conceivable, just because of the fact that you disobeyed God, which in fact, being God, He knew you would do anyway. But He went ahead and permitted it to happen. And He gets to laugh and watch you suffer forever. Such a God, as you pointed out, would be more devilish than any devil ever could be. And you and I have the right and duty to tell Him so. I mean, why not? An anpayable debt is still an unplayable debt no matter how big it is. Go ahead and tell Him what sick low life piece of scum He is for doing this to you.

I would.

But the truth is actually that the dead, no mater if they had been good or bad, are sleeping beyond anyone’s capacity to awaken, other than God’s. Now God does allow them to dream when it suits His purposes or pleasure, and what he alows them to dream about is either The Lake of Fire or The Bliss of Heaven. Depending upon which fate awaits them. The Born Again (not the saved, everyone is saved) dream of heavenly things, people, places, and God. While the rest, are tormented by the nightmare of going through the Lake of Fire and having all their evil burned right out of them and it is not a pleasant experience, at lest not until it is overwith. The Lake of Fire is a type of Punishment, not a torture chamber, and no punishment lasts forever.

The reason for it all:

Because god wanted to establish His greatest creation. GRACE.

In order for Grace to exist. Badness must exist temporarily. Evil must exist temporarily. And all unpleasantness too. For Grace to be established it must be entirely based upon the virtue of another to rectify the wrecked condition of another. And for Grace to have full value of being Grace some must be temporarily denied certain amounts of Grace as compared to others or given more, or extremely little, completely at God’s discretion. He makes some people wonderful and some people disgusting. The Hierarchy in the Heavens to come will be established by, and function all by the Grace of God. Some will have more than others, some will have less. But even what the lest will have will be wonderful, because all the former things will be passed away.

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