Vexen Crabtree 2015

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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards


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Vexen Crabtree 2015
vexen

Jesus did not exist

"Jesus Did Not Exist" by Vexen Crabtree

The box...

(Anonymous)
Didn't exist? Then check out the latest archeological find:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/10/21/jesus.box/index.html

"James, Joseph and Jesus were common names in ancient Jerusalem, a city
of about 40,000 residents. Lemaire estimates there could have been as many as 20 Jameses in the city with brothers named Jesus and fathers named Joseph"

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Jesus did not exist

(Anonymous)
If Jesus didn't exist how come there are Jewish, Roman and Greek documents relating to him, that even the biggest atheistic scolars have been unable to disprove? Also Jesus was seen by over 500 people AFTER he rose from the dead, amongst these two Roman historians and a Jewish historian who all say the same things yet could have never met! Also the New Testament itself is widelt viewed to be a very accurate historical document.The question is not whether Jesus existed. It is who he really was!

Re: Jesus did not exist

There are no Roman documents that mention Jesus. The only Jewish ones were written by gnostic Christians (such as Paul) who didn't believe in a literal Christ, but a transcendental concept of Christ.

If by "Jewish scholar" you mean Josephus, the only time Josephus mentions Jesus is in a comment called the "Flavius Testimonium", which was faked in about the 4th century by Christians.

In short: There are no historical documents that mention a historical Jesus. The only documents we have are some gnostic Christian/Jewish Christian stuff, later on.

The NT is very much NOT regarded as a "very accurate" historical document.

Firstly, it is not a "document" but a series of books written across a few hundred years.

Seconly, the earliest texts treat Jesus as a symbol and part of gnostic story telling - not a literal person

Thirdly, early Church fathers did NOT know (for example) on what day Jesus was born, what die he died, where he was buried, etc. They didn't know this because there was no Jesus.

Try reading some of the links on that page, there are some very detailed documents and studies of some of the texts I've mentioned, it is a very comprehensively studied area of history.

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jesus or his words which is important

(Anonymous)
so what if jesus did not exist , icare more for parables and the sentences of wisdom written in the gospel of matthew mark luke john,
mind you i read upanishads bhagavadgita, khoran, tripitikas,the senteces are on par with other religious scriptures, i would say even more powerful and mind boggling if you have to understand

iam not a christian.

Re: jesus or his words which is important

You sound sensible

God is alive

(Anonymous)
It's tough to find out where the truth is. I mean a liar could tell me his opponant is lying and I would be lost without evidence. People reject God because of lies. But here are some truths.
1) I was once addicted to porn. No longer. How? Prayer. I tried for 14 years, until I started praying.
2) I didn't have money to live on my own, though I was on my own. For 30 days, God provided food for me through people and circumstances. God loves me.
3) I had a spider bite on my leg when I was working in Jamaica for 2 weeks. I started to pray that it would heal, and it did. I was skeptical and so I stopped praying... and I had to go to the hospital because it got so bad. I have the scar as a reminder of the power of prayer, and the dangers of believing a lie.

Are these events imaginary? Am I a liar? If there were any other way to be free from porn, then I have all ready tried it, even calling out to other gods and Muhammad. If I am a liar, then so are those who were with and researched Jesus Christ as found in the Bible. If I am not a liar, then neither are they, because their words worked in my life.
4) Last week my mom overdosed on sleeping pills. I prayed for her to be healed in the name of Jesus. She was out of the hospital the next day. God heals us of our hurts.

God loves us, and would rather die then destroy us. He has all ready done that. Where else will you find that love other than through Jesus Christ?
Steven

So, you perform magic but think that God done it, not you? Why do you assume that? If you believe in magic (and clearly you do - whether you believe that God does it or you do), why do assume that it requires the intervention of a good god? Do you believe magic works even when god isn't secretly doing it for you?

Also, if God wanted to use magic to aid your friend, why did it need *your* help to do it? If God wanted your friend healed, it would heal your friend. If God didn't want your friend to be healed, no amount of praying, persuasion or argument could make God change it's mind! (An omniscient being that knows everything can't exactly lose an argument!)

So, what gives?

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How dare you voice your thoughts on such a dangerous subject like it doesnt affect thousands of peoples lifes. I doubt the facts that were found about Jesus could be faked. If you want to live a negitive life without Our Lord do it on your own dude. It's people like you I pray most. God bless you.

Jesus H Christ

(Anonymous)
Please. PLEASE. If you're going to italicize the word, "definitely," spell it right! Oh God! Spell it right! Spell it right please, Jesus! OHH!!! GOD!!! RAPTURE ME!!!

Re: Jesus H Christ

Tee hee... ok... I've noted the error. I can't fix it for a while because I'm not with my own computer & source files etc, but will fix it on next upload.

Thanks for letting me know.

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the truth!

(Anonymous)
The truth is that there is historical proof that Jesus lived.
Cornelius Tacitus-- Talked about Christs death.
Lucian Samosata- Greek Satirist made references to the 'man' christians worship.
Suetonius-- Jews expelled from Rome due to activities on behalf of a man called Cherstus (mispelling of Christ).
Pliny the younger-- Executed christians and wrote about how they sang songs to Christ.
Thallius and Phlegon (historians) Both confirmed the land went dark when Christ crucified.
Josephus- Describes Jesus as a wise man, doer of wonderful works and calls him Christ.

The gospels- Mark written in AD50-65. Matthew written in AD70-80 and
Luke early ad60's. John was written in ad80-100.

The first three gospels were all written within living memory of christ being crucified. And these early accounts of the gospels confirm that what was written in John to be true.

Just these facts alone throw incredible doubt as to the sincerity and onus of yourself in relation to what you are writing.



Mara bar Serapion- Wrote a letter to his son which describes how the Jews executed their King.

Alexander the great lived well before Jesus Christ. But we have no problem believing what was written about him by those who saw him or heard of him.The old testament foretold the coming of christ. Did Jesus not foretell the fall of Jerusalem in ad70? What is it about Christ that men are still talking about him over 2000 years later?
You see we know about Alexander the Great and men recorded what he did. It is just that n one is interested as it has no bearing on this time.
But as for Christ. He has been talked of since he came with ceasing.
Look at Paul his travels are recorded. What changed such a hardened enemy of Christ into his most ardent follower.?

The truth is God told us what would happen. Like Adam and Eve we have to decide if we are going to listen and take heed of his warnings.
The last days men will become godless. This site is proof again of prophesy being fulfilled. Even if we burnt the history books and got rid of all material evidence. The truth would still exist. That there is only one God and his son Jesus Christ was the Messiah. And as he changed the lives of many thousands over 2,000 years ago. He is still doing it today. For Gods Kingdom cannot been seen by the eye for it is within a person. To understand and accept truth. We first have to be open minded to receive it. Your blatant disregard for what the historians actually wrote prove you are looking to prove that there is not a God, whether or not there is. It is not proof but assurance for something you decided on before you searched. Try reading the bible and reading what others wrote about Christ. What problem do you really have with such a loving forgiving God and a saviour who touched lepers before he healed them? Such love is rare. Truth has to be sought with an open mind and heart. With the purpose of finding the answer to the question not trying to create the answer.

Lynne.

Re: the truth!

(Anonymous)
could anyone provide links or details of where these details can be found?

Hey, Vexen! *tangyapple* here. (I'm on a self-imposed hiatus; I may undelete my journal after a month's break.) I've read this book, plus the follow-up "Jesus and the Lost Goddess." To me, they both make a very strong case for the idea that Jesus was mythical. The first book explains the history and the second, the meaning behind some of the original Christians' beliefs concerning the myth. It does seem very suspicious to me that the 'history' would so closely resemble multiple, earlier myths!

However, the Lost Goddess began to lose steam with me toward the end of the book, with the definition of this 'female' half merely representing the error: the psyche's fall into identification with the body. Their few disclaimers that God (nor any manifestation thereof) is not necessarily of any 'gender' weren't strong enough, and thus left this reader wondering why the Messiah is (always) portrayed as male, and the wanton, fallen human as a female... prostitute. I suppose there's no other way to effectively describe the *problem* of identifying with the body or flesh without invoking a sexual component; and it's probably generally accepted that prostitutes at the time were only and always female. Now maybe I have trouble seeing beyond the gender labels. And granted, the higher Sophia is also female, but still, the whole notion of the epicenter of God (pure consciousness) is still very strongly depicted as having a male essence.

Anyway, I'm still enjoying your essays and keeping tabs on your site. There's so much to learn! :) I hope you're doing well! Take care. ^__^

jesus and the easter bunny wait santa too!!!!!

(Anonymous)
religion is like opium for the masses, i get tired of people trying so hard to convience me there is a god who use to be a man. at age six i was told there was no santa and what immediatelly followed was santa is really my parents. so why wouldn't jesus be in the same category. explain it i won't listen. tell me about the similarities about jesus and that guy horace you know the first jesus from the corahn. tell me how the world is going to end and explain to me why every year we have to say is this the year. religion uses a scare tactics to control the masses. they also want your money. i believe there is only one god. i believe that my god created lucipher on purpose to control the heavens not the earth. i know one day that god himself will foregive the devil. if he really means it. oh did i mention to tell you. i don't believe in a god nor a jesus. l believe that the end of the world is your death. i believe that giving ten percent to the church is b.s. give to yourself or to someone who needs it. like a homeless guy someone in africa or around the world where someone starving gets to eat. stop paying for false profits trips, air condition, water, gas ect...do the right thing even if you disagree withwhat i write choose for yourself don't let anyone do it for you.

Re: jesus and the easter bunny wait santa too!!!!!

(Anonymous)
Hey man...
EVERYONE has faith. You have faith that this world is real and that your senses are correctly representing reality. If you disagree, then prove to me that you are real... Prove that the world has always existed and that matter is eternal. You have faith in these things (if not then an intellectual infinite being must exist).
You told us to choose for yourself, yet you are telling us which road we are to choose. Aren't you doing exactly what the "church" is doing? TELLING us what to do! I am 5 hours away from a trip to help build houses in Charleston. I don't tithe--I give where I feel led. I work where I feel compelled. You have stereotyped Christians. Stop. I am not telling you what to believe, but asking that you be human and kind about your beliefs. Be rational- not belligerent.
Adios...
Dean

your website

(Anonymous)
Hello,
I could not miss the opportunity to comment on your website. Firstly, it is extremely accessible, well presented, clear and simple. There is evidence of research, enquiry and subject knowledge. There is not however, evidence of genuine historical enquiry that should characterise any establishment of truth claims in religious history. Many key influences are ignored. For example, it is not surprising that we can find all sorts of semi-parallel materials in history. Two things to consider concerning them is
1) how sure we can be about their dating-there may also exist many counterfeit attempts to produce prior parallel material
2) If there is true religion revealed from God, then there will also be counterfeit religion (as there are many different religions in the world)-thereby other religions will centre around distortions of the truth (and therefore bear similarities).
What I need to say most fervently is that the Jewish context and history has been ignored in your consideration. That there were 12 disciples has to do with the Jewish nation classified into 12 nations for hundreds of years previous to any pagan sun theories. The events of Jesus' life and death are all found in the Old Testament documents that precede Jesus and can be clearly identified. E.G many texts in Isaiah, the third chapter of Genesis (he (satan/snake) will bite your heel but you will crush his head)many more.
Consider also the historical nature of the 12 disciples, their own writings, letters sent to archaelogicaly verifiable places bearing all the contemporary marks of their culture, currency and issues, bearing very level headed argument and appeal. Consider also their documented deaths for refusing to deny Christ. If I were them and I were in doubt or lying about this Jesus, the point I would give it all in would be when I was about to be crucified upside down. Christianity leaves itself open to historical falsifiabilty and you are right if it is not true Christians are to be pitied and life is only about eating, drinking, being merry-doing whatever you want, no holes barred. However, consider the possibility too that many believe it to be true, but deny it or hold it lightly because it prevents them living the life they want to live. If they want to be promiscuous, be powerful lording it over others, be wealthy at the expense of others and so on, then they would choose to deny/ignore given evidence because it suits them to do so. But they will deprive themselves of joy and pay the penalty.

Yours hopefully
Chris Woollett

Deluded!!!!

(Anonymous)
I tell you what, if the bible is fake and Jesus didn't exist it must be one heck of a conspiracy to get that many people involved and for 1000's of people to still believe in it over 2000 years later, well!!! Nice work to them all if it is indeed a fake, BUT I put it to you that it is not. Jesus is in fact the most recorded person in the ancient world and his death is the best attested death of his time. There is no denying that Jesus existed. You are merely clutching at straws to bad mouth the Christian faith! I agree that there is doubt as to whether there is a God and if Jesus did indeed rise from the dead but that is why it is called faith. I am sure you have faith that next time you breathe your lungs will fill with air, even though you can see that air you believe that it is there, you can see the effects it has. Well the same can be said for people with a Christian faith. They can not see God but they can see the effects that he has on peoples lives and on what is going on in the world today. Had it occurred to you that you ought not to be so small minded and find something better to do that bad mouth religion. Maybe you ought to go out and help all those people in the world that the church is not helping! Just give it ago. There are 1000's of Christian men and women who have dedicated their lives to helping people in need and repairing broken lives. Do you not think that is somewhat more constructive than you website? I am not asking you to believe in God and Jesus and all that the Christian faith stand for just have some respect and try to stop being such a hypocrite.

Re: Deluded!!!!

(Anonymous)
Air can be seen. You give another bad analogy in an attempt to defend a delusion.

Look, if all you have to go on is "a lot of people believe", then why don't you adopt Gnosticism, Mysticism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, or any of the other 10,000 religions that have been created by humans and other hominids prior to humans?

It is really quite easy to prove that there is no Jesus. But, then again, you have to be coming from a perspective that there is no Zeus either in order to accept the reality and evidence.

Jesus' "death" was wildly reported as true (many years later) as was his life. And your point is? So were many other man-gods with lives similar to Jebus reported as true during times prior to Jesus. Santa was also reported to shimmy down my chimney recently. Somehow, I am just not buying it (but then again, I don’t have a chimney).

I will say this. I have tried it both ways. I am far happier and content without fairy-tales than I was with them. Here is the shocker of all shockers: I have raised three children not to believe as well. Ha ha. And, they are so visceral about it that they are going around debating their other young friends about Christianity. It is just a matter of time and you guys are sunk. You tried burning the libraries and people who proclaimed science. Now you can’t get past the dissemination of information. Without you, we will get less guilt, more kindness, less killing and more personal happiness along with a general advancement of the human species.

With Jesus, your life is based on an anachronism that is simply not true. Without him, you are you. Don’t you value you enough to actually be you?

--Former Kool-Aid Drinker

Hey

(Anonymous)
Sorry, terrible title, couldn't think what to put. I'm not sure if you'll want to read it cause it's written by a Christian (although you may already done so), but a really cool book is "A Case for Christ". This guy basically goes round and interviews loads of experts about various things like archeaological evidence, psychological evidence, medical evidence etc. etc. He studied law and was a journalist, and its really well written, not at all dry. Definitely worth a read whatever you're viewpoint.

Re: Hey

(Anonymous)
No offense but that book has been roundly debated and debunked and many years ago.

It is in the pseudo historical category sort of like ID is in the pseudo science category (being kind here).

<3 <3 <3 <3

(Anonymous)

Love... Just... Love... <3 <3 <3

I really liked a lot
of the info on this
website... Omg...

(Runs off to show her uber conservative Bible-thumping parents.)

Religous Experience

(Anonymous)
I was brought up in the church and had a very strong faith. It seems totally unjust to rationally believe that an innocent baby should be born with original sin - because of the sins of it's parents ( whoose ancesters were Adam and Eve).
I struggled to believe in God and Jesus for many years - aided by what I thought were supernatural revelations or 'highs'.
It's obvious to me that the religous experiences that people go through on an emotional level are in fact, a manifestation of Bipolar Disorder. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. As such it is possible to believe in the irrational. When people have doubts about faith it is because they are coming down from a 'high'.
As a rule of thumb, i think that if people behaved towards each other in the way that Jesus exorted us to, the world would be a much beter place.
Unfortunately, the church and believers are often mor interested in 'playing God' as Judge instead of forgiving and being unconditional in their largesse towards ech other. Jesus said, 'love thy neighbour' - full stop. It wasn't conditional. The 'Christian Club' will always be there for you as long as you unquestionably go along with everything that it teaches - ask awkward questions - and you're out. It's about time we al grew up and decided to be nice to each other just for the sake of it - becuase it makes sense. We shouldn't need religon to make us do that.
In my experience, Christians and priests have been some of the most hateful people I have met. It's really worrying when people like Blair and Bush think that they have a mandate from God to go to war when they have a 'divine revelation'.
Believe me - with all the talk about charity - the church won't give a toss about you when you fall on hard times. Whilst you've got something to offer in the way of talent, social standing or money - it will embrace you like a rash!
The Beatles were right, 'All you need is love' - if we could get that right - everything else would fall into place.
Has is ever occured to you that in all the countries which are predominated by Christianity there is more fammine and poverty than anywhere else? The only thing they have left - is hope, but all the prayer in the world doesn't seem to make any difference. If God knew that us humans were going to make such a mess of the world with 'reknowledge' why did He design the world like it is? The church will tell you that it is because of free will. If you knew that your kid was going to go out and shoot someone even though you knew it was wrong - would you still give hime freewill? I hope not. You'd be a lousy parent if you did.

Re: Religous Experience

(Anonymous)
Hi , Listen It sounds like you have had a bad experience in your early years with your church (I'm guessing so please forgive me if I'm wrong). I also grew up in a very strict catholic family and went to a catholic school, It amazes me to see how many christian churches and christians around the world feel the need to be forcefull in spreading christianity. Where is the free will in that. The irony is that christians are called to follow the life of Jesus. What did Jesus do when people during his time didn't believe who he was? well he didn't force them to believe, in a lot of cases he just left. The Sermon on the mount is a good example of this, after the people started walking away in discust shaking their heads at what he was saying, he turned to his deciples and said to them are you now going to leave too and when he sent his diciples out to spread his message he told them if you enter a house and you are not welcome, turn away and leave that house, he never condoned using any kind of force (whether mental(through slander) of physical)to spread christianity because by doing that you are taking away someones free will to believe what they choose, Yet we do it all the time. You also mentioned that 'the church and believers are often mor interested in 'playing God', unfortunatly you are so right about this as well and it is sad that this is the case. But the thing is that we are at risk of rejecting God ironically by ourselves Judging who God is by the actions of his followers.
Two of my family members are christians and one is a pschyotherapist and is fully aware of the affects of brain chemical imbalance but if that was true look at how many true believers are in the world, that is alot of people with chemical imbalances.
Just to briefly comment on your last point about why God knowingly created the world knowing we were going to make such a mess. Well there is alot I don't understand myself about God but I do know he is hurting far more than we are about how messed up the world is but I think that God made us as free creatures because they are the only type of creatures who can love because love is something you do out of choice. you can't make someone believe otherwise they wouldn't be free.I suppose then we'd be like clones programmed to live a certain way but for the sake of the few who will be saved God has allowed things to unfold as they are.
I think the important thing to remember is that He calls us to believe out of choice not forcefully out of fear. The only time fear comes into anything througout history or in scripture is during judgment of some kind.
You also mentioned,' the church won't give a toss about you when you fall on hard times', my advice would be to walk away from anyone (or church) who claims to represent God or tries to spread Gods word through force or fear,or makes anyone(regardless of their race, sex or religion) feel inferior or less important just because they don't believe in Jesus. That creats divides and barriers which divides people and Jesus came to unite people.
Thats what jesus warned about when his diciples asked him about false churches or prophets, Good Churches bear good fruits(people), and should be there for you regardless of where you are in life. Unfortunatly I know this is not always the case.
And I know that a lot of churches will discriminate you because of maybe something you have done or a situation you are in, God does not discriminate and there is absolutly nothing you can do to make him love you any less.
Sorry to drag on a bit and I am sorry to hear of your experience. Its definitly not easy I can tell you, but I really do hope you find your way.
And you have probably guessed by now that I am a christian too <
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Hi , Listen It sounds like you have had a bad experience in your early years with your church (I'm guessing so please forgive me if I'm wrong). I also grew up in a very strict catholic family and went to a catholic school, It amazes me to see how many christian churches and christians around the world feel the need to be forcefull in spreading christianity. Where is the free will in that. The irony is that christians are called to follow the life of Jesus. What did Jesus do when people during his time didn't believe who he was? well he didn't force them to believe, in a lot of cases he just left. The Sermon on the mount is a good example of this, after the people started walking away in discust shaking their heads at what he was saying, he turned to his deciples and said to them are you now going to leave too and when he sent his diciples out to spread his message he told them if you enter a house and you are not welcome, turn away and leave that house, he never condoned using any kind of force (whether mental(through slander) of physical)to spread christianity because by doing that you are taking away someones free will to believe what they choose, Yet we do it all the time. You also mentioned that 'the church and believers are often mor interested in 'playing God', unfortunatly you are so right about this as well and it is sad that this is the case. But the thing is that we are at risk of rejecting God ironically by ourselves Judging who God is by the actions of his followers.
Two of my family members are christians and one is a pschyotherapist and is fully aware of the affects of brain chemical imbalance but if that was true look at how many true believers are in the world, that is alot of people with chemical imbalances.
Just to briefly comment on your last point about why God knowingly created the world knowing we were going to make such a mess. Well there is alot I don't understand myself about God but I do know he is hurting far more than we are about how messed up the world is but I think that God made us as free creatures because they are the only type of creatures who can love because love is something you do out of choice. you can't make someone believe otherwise they wouldn't be free.I suppose then we'd be like clones programmed to live a certain way but for the sake of the few who will be saved God has allowed things to unfold as they are.
I think the important thing to remember is that He calls us to believe out of choice not forcefully out of fear. The only time fear comes into anything througout history or in scripture is during judgment of some kind.
You also mentioned,' the church won't give a toss about you when you fall on hard times', my advice would be to walk away from anyone (or church) who claims to represent God or tries to spread Gods word through force or fear,or makes anyone(regardless of their race, sex or religion) feel inferior or less important just because they don't believe in Jesus. That creats divides and barriers which divides people and Jesus came to unite people.
Thats what jesus warned about when his diciples asked him about false churches or prophets, Good Churches bear good fruits(people), and should be there for you regardless of where you are in life. Unfortunatly I know this is not always the case.
And I know that a lot of churches will discriminate you because of maybe something you have done or a situation you are in, God does not discriminate and there is absolutly nothing you can do to make him love you any less.
Sorry to drag on a bit and I am sorry to hear of your experience. Its definitly not easy I can tell you, but I really do hope you find your way.
And you have probably guessed by now that I am a christian too <<but don't hold that against me... :)>>
Take care, and all the best
Thanks

God

(Anonymous)
It is sad when poeple have to attack one of the few things that help mankind stay together in any form. Try and prove God was real the same as moses was. If you dont believe in God you dont believe in anything. Meaning your life in hell is all that matters. Have fun live in it and die in it. Sorry all the poor souls out there that had a experience with God must be sick but I can tell you they are happy and ready to face death in a good way. Tommy Hawksblood

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