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Vexen Crabtree 2015


Vexen Crabtree's Live Journal

Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

Paul of Tarsus

Paul of Tarsus by Vexen Crabtree: Debates on Jesus, Mithraism, Gnosticism, Epileptic Fits and Authorship of the Pauline Epistles

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It seems when christians put their faith in their "god" they are really putting their faith in men such as Paul. It is interesting how few people actually take the time to research what they are dedicating their life to. So what does that turn their faith into...ignorance, in my opinion.

Re: Where is the faith?

You are the ignorant one. Paul always states that his power comes through God. He admits that he was wrong in persecuting Jesus after he was converted. Have you ever actually studied the letters of Paul and what he meant? Seems to me that you have a lot to learn.

Re: Where is the faith? (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Where is the faith? (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Where is the faith? (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Where is the faith? (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Where is the faith? (Anonymous) Expand
None of the Paulines were written by St. Paul, who is not even historical, but a caricature of Simon Magus.
The inauthenticity of all Paulines has been proven thoroughly by Hermann Detering in "Der Gefaelschte Paulus" , and already earlier by Naber, Pierson in Verisimilia, Wilhelmus van Manen, Gustaaf Adolf van den Bergh van Eysinga, Paul0Louis Couchoud.
Some letters were written by Marcion around 140, and fraudulently mutilated by Catholic forgers. Others are genuine work of Catholic forgers not earlier than 150.
Only naive scholars believe in authentic Paulines.

Klaus Schilling

Naivity consists in embracing the most unconventual in order to "prove" intellegence

As a historian who happened upon this page while researching for her thesis, I am just a bit perturbed at Mr. Schilling's statement (not to mention the other, unintellegable babbling that do not merit my time to address).
Sir, to state that Paul never existed, nor his epistles authentic is hogwash! Carbon dating has set the Pauline documents as first-century--older than most of the oldest Gospel texts. Moreover, what "proof" you've cited only warrents a scholarly scoffing--there is more proof to the existance of Paul than there is of Aristotle and Plato. Your citations are minimal, for to quote christian and non-christian scholars, alike, who support, nay, prove the "historical Jesus" (not to mention, a "historical Paul--of whom we have the bodily remains of) it would take me more than five pages just to begin.
You, sir, remind me of a quote from the famed journalist and social cynic, G.K. Chesterton: "(This) marks their mood about the whole religious tradition: they are in a state of reaction against it. It is well with the boy when he lives on his father's land; and well with him again when he is far enough from it to look back on it and see it as a whole. But these people have got into an intermediate state, haven fallen into an intervening valley from which they can see neither the heights beyond them nor the heights behind. They cannont get out of the penumbra of Christian controversy. They cannot be Christians and they cannot leave off being Anti-Christians. Their whole atmosphere is the atmosphere of a reaction: sulks, perversity, petty criticism. They still live in the shadow of the faith and have lost the light of the faith."
And again,
"The worst judge of all is the man now most ready with his judgements; the ill-educated Christian turning gradually into the ill-tempered agnostic, entangled in the end of a feud of which he never understood the beginning, blighted with a sort of heretitary boredom with he knows not what, and already weary of hearing what he has never heard."
-("The Everlasting Man", GK Chesterton)

Both of these seem to reflect your attempts at alternative history, more than scholastic efforts. Tuche.

It appears that you have formulated an opinion prior to doing any research. You have a God-given right not to believe that Jesus is the Messiah or that He even existed, as your essay seems to suggest. You also have a right not to believe in God. But to intimate that Paul made up the Jesus story based on Greek mythology is a thoroughly groundless position. If people want to be agnostics or atheists, they ought to do so only after they've read the Bible and are fully acquainted with the content. I can respect that. FYI: that Jesus existed and worked miracles is not the creation of Paul but of Josephus, a renowned secular historian of the day. Check it out. And the Gospels weren't written 200 years later. Because if they were they would have noted the destruction of Jerusalem--an event as cataclysmic as Babylon.

Josephus made no mention of Jesus, and why do you believe that Josephus made the stories up, and then remained unconverted? It makes even less sense than saying Paul made the stories up, and pretended to convert!

Faith (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Faith (Anonymous) Expand
Sheepish morons? (Anonymous) Expand
Re: Faith (Anonymous) Expand
Actually... he did (Anonymous) Expand
(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand

Curious to know...

Hi. Your site makes for some very interesting reading, thanks. I did wonder though... in response to this statement:

Dionysios: 8th century BC
Like Jesus he is the son of a god (Zeus) and a mortal woman, like Jesus he was a healer, like Jesus he turned water into wine (the marriage at Kana) and was a mortal and resurrected god.

I have spent the last hour trying to verify this through search engines. So far these people seem to be the only ones that have this information, and it seems this would be easy to find on other sites, but I have not seen it anywhere else, except where others are questioning it as well in one message forum I came across. I would like to know some additional references besides Freke and Grundy where I can find this, or perhaps what their reference source was, if you could help me with that, as you seem more familiar with it than I am. I have seen no mention of any of the above quoted information, anywhere on the internet. All I have found is that he was a Greek god of wine and intoxication... but nothing where he changed water into wine, nor where he was a healer, nor where he was a mortal and then resurrected god. Not trying to be mean at all, just would like to know some other references where I can second opinion this - it seems there should be plenty of references to verify something of this magnitude all over the internet, such as other writings, other reference sites, etc... something to back it up besides just what these two people say... but I have not found anything. I am also getting ready to look up the other references as well to see what all I can find, regarding the various other Roman/Greek myths.

Thanks! Feel free to write me back at Chenoas333@aol.com if you would like, otherwise I can just check back here.

Re: Now you know...

Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus Wikipedia. :o) And it didn't take me an hour either. I googled Dionysus and it was the second link that came up in the search. Look under Parallels with Christianity.

Re: Curious to know... (Anonymous) Expand

Stoicism in Christianity

You know what I'd like to see? A Vexen page linked to this one about how the morality of the New Testament is contrived from Stoic Philosophy which was the primary philosophy of Tarsus. The Stoic School itself was founded in 322BCE. It is a philosophy of asceticism, repression of emotions and desires (ex. anger, lust, pride, ambition, passion, etc; all condemned by Paul), and of course, good will towards men. :) Sound familiar? Well it should because it's the foundations of Christianity, using the last part to make it seem wholesome. Stoic Philosophy is what Paul and the early Church used as their worm of sin to infect and control mankind with its guilt-ridden rape of conscience.

You could also do a page on the influence of Philo – logos - and, of course, Plato on Christianity. One only has to read the Republic to see the obviousness of it. Christian theology is pretty much plagiarism of mental warfare.

Re: Stoicism in Christianity

Interestingly, enough, my thesis is regarding this topic of Stoic philosophy and the Epistles.

Granted, you cited only Stoic Pietas, not the entirety of stoicism, which is QUITE different from Christianity regarding science, etc.

Stoic Pietas was grounded within the Roman Culture (and thus colonies such as Tarsus) esp. through the legion. Cicero really established this way of thinking--esp. about the virtues--and Seneca continued through the life of Paul of Tarsus. Tarsus, itself, was a stoic epicentre...one must believe that all citizens of Rome were indocternated with such ideals, for Rome sought to spread Roman culture. Paul was a Roman citizen....grace being built on nature, I plan to prove Paul built upon the good virtues of Stoicism, but softened them with the truth of Grace and Love...bringing his first, hardnosed approach to yeild, later on, to a Fatherly concern for his flock.

Paul's Documents

Paul's anti-Gnostic Pastoral letters are fakes, forged in the late second century. In the genuine letters Paul is not anti-Gnostic and never mentions an historical Jesus

Is that to say that ALL of "Paul's" letters in the New Testament are fakes or only some? And if so, which ones? And who has the real ones for that matter? And how did THESE people get a hold of them? I would LOVE to read the real ones. That's monumental!

life experience

hi, l went over your writings and being a christian by choice, l'd like to throw few comments:

first, when attacking Christianity, first thing you should do is read and understand and know the Lord of Christianity-Lord Jesus Christ!! after all we are Christians as Paul was and not"Paul-ians"- with total respect to Paul's writings that are part of the Bible and therefore inspired by God.

second,being EPILEPTIC myself, and l know more than all neurologists of the world what seizures are and how it really feels during and after the seizure, hallucinations has nothing to do with it!! l wish it was the case--at least l would have some nice dreams when through it. Instead during a seizure you feel like you are in a very deep sleep and you don't realise what happens to you until you wake up and are notified by people around you that you were unconcious!! therefore what Paul experienced is not a seizure!! it's somethig divine that changed the course of his life 180 degrees!! A seizure doesn't do that, nor anything else does,but the touch of God!

third, l don't think it's reasonable to suggest an agreement that goes:"well, what you have experienced is wrong! and l can change what you have experienced with some hypotheses." There are people who Experienced the life of Christ throughout history and still millions around the globe in our times share testimonies of Christ's love and salvation, and l'm one of them. l have exprienced Jesus myself and that's a fact that no science can change whatsoever.

l pray that you yourself would discover the love of Jesus Christ and the peace and joy that escort your life due to His presence.

Women And The New Covenant Of Christ l



Freedom Under The New Covenant of Christ -
The liberation of Women, Class Distinction and Religious Authoritarianism


I love how much of this so-called "essay" is based on assumption presented as fact. And your sources are obviously, heavliy biased bullshit. A strawman argument if I've ever seen one.

I'm not even going to argue, because I'd have to write articles for each sentence you wrote in your article. I would have written an book by the time I was done, picking apart every letter in each word.


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