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Vexen Crabtree 2015


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Sociology, Theology, Anti-Religion and Exploration: Forcing Humanity Forwards

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Vexen Crabtree 2015

God did not create the universe

Read essay online and leave comment here

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A matter of perspective

This is possibly the biggest question humankind has ever faced. I think that a necessary first step in addressing this issue would be to define God. After a proper definition of God is provided, then the following issues are next to deal with:

1. Is God's definition of the universe the same as ours?

2. Is the concept of time the same to God as it is to us? In other words, is there such a thing as time to God?

3. Assuming that God did create the universe, what was he doing before? How did he exist? And why does that matter if there wasn't anything around to acknowledge the fact he existed. This is an important question. It is logical to assume, perhaps, that at some point God was the only entity that existed. The question of how he existed is an even more profound one and even more difficult to address. But for all practical purposes let's assume he just existed. He had nothing to interact with, therefore he must have created the universe to entertain himself. He must have been very bored prior to creating the universe.

4. Where did God's knowledge come from? In order for you to create something, you must have the knowledge and the tools to perform that task. You have to have a mind of some kind. So God has to have a mind of some sort. So far so good. Now, this raises an important question. If there was no universe, not anything at all before God's creation of it, how was this knowledge planted on God's mind? How did He acquire the knowledge to be imaginative and creative so as to create a universe that portrays this kind of complexity and inner-workings? The general assumption would be that he had this prior knowledge. Some people argue that it makes no sense to talk about events that occurred before time even existed. I disagree. The fact that God created both the universe and time implies a vast intelligence and it is illogical to dismiss this by merely stating that anything that happened before time is senseless. That would be trying to evade the issue.

Can someone please try to address these questions?


What can I say.....you might be right or not.....mate.....who knows?

The bottom line is that our analysis of the meaning and origin of our existence is reliant on the limits of our own logic. this means that at the best all we are doing is having a good guess.
As well as the limits of our own logic, we are also limited by our 5 senses, who knows what is out there how can we know with 5 senses!
No one can explain to me where the very first atom came from - the very first existence of matter in whatever form. If we don't know this then we dont know anything and as a result none of us can have more than a wild guess about what its all about.

It seems' to me that when you say "our own logic", you seem to imply that there are different types of logic. As far as we can tell, this isn't the case. And as to the alleged limitations of the senses, on what grounds do you doubt their validity? (This question is written in the spirit of the logical law of the stolen concept; in other words, you cannot presuppose the thing that you are trying to disprove.)
Your question about where the first atom came from is invalid; there is no "where". This a subtle but important point because, it seems to me anyway, that the universe is simply a brute fact; and therefore need not come from "anywhere".

When I stated "our own logic" I meant that we are all aware that our thinking and understanding is limited to the capacity of our brain, and the logic we use to try and understand matters has to acknowledge this.I'm not suggesting there are "different type of logic", only that different people interpret and apply information individually.
I don't doubt the validity of the senses we have got, but the fact that we have only 5 of them could limit our awareness of what is around us.
I don't feel my point about the origin of matter is invalid. The Universe is indeed a brute fact, but that cannot deny the question about a beginning and an end. My interest is the beginning and the so called Big Bang. For there to have been a Big Bang there had to be matter of some kind - you can't get something out of nothing and the statement " need not come from anywhere" avoids the question and is meaningless.Are you suggesting that matter has no origin?

Some scientists hold that the Universe is infinite, cyclic, and therefore was not created. This is the same logic that theists use when they say God is infinite.

Look into the Big Bang - start with Stephen Hawkings, his "A brief history of time" is the best start.

You believe that God has no origin, that God was not created. So, you believe that there exists at least one thing that was not created, but was simply instantaneous. Many scientists also believe in one thing like that, and call it The Universe, which became shortly before the time of the Big Bang. If you say that "Nothing can be uncreated" then your God, too, cannot be uncreated. If you say "Everything except God was created", then it is just as logical as me saying "Everything except the Universe was created"



Man...well, some people have a way with 'words'. So, out of all that 'mumbo' 'jumbo', what you are saying is that basically, the universe just decided to come on its own.....
Well, that sure sums it up for everything, doesn't it. hhmmm...but now what a min...
CAn the universe 'think'? Is it alive? Is the universe a living entity? Because for the Universe to just come into its own, or rather, decide to be created, or should we say, come from nothing, be 'logically' possible? HHMM>...well, we know things everywhere in the world have a beginning and a cause, and...vice versa. So, the universe is the Formal Beginning, without cause. I certainly wish someone can prove that. In the meantime, I'm going to go with my 'gut' feelings, which came from nothing, because the universe came from nothing, or just decided to be created.

As far as the 'smart people' of the world are concerned, life is possible by certain compounds, chemicals, etc., {you get the idea, so for more specific information on biochemistry, refer to wherever u can. ;) } And where the compounds came from, they came from outerspace, generally speaking, since our world was created, according to men, somehow by some force made possible by a exploding nebula gas cloud that condensed and blah blah blah, anyway....

The point is, I ask u this logical question to you. Where did we come from?
For what end? For what purpose?

of course, I'm gonna get creamed by philosophical B.S. on these questions, since we have to credit 'man'. However, ....

if there is No God, well, great, let's just live our lives by 'chance', since the world is not running on any goal for an end, and live as indifferent to each other as possible, since humans are nothing more than 'machines', as defined by HUME. You get the idea.

Or, if there is a God, then let's go ahead and just follow above paragraph and find out what will really happen after death. After all, death is really the answer to discovering if there is any kind of afterlife. I guess, we have a soul, right...

Death is really the answer to ur questions. No one can answer whether there is a God or NOT. We can just keep playing with theories, and in the meantime, flatter each other and pat ourselves in the back for making breakthrough discoverys in science, technology, blah, blah, blah, and say that we are the creaters of ourselves, or NOT. What, a contradiction? I guess, hhhmm..

I will choose God, and I will go with a book called the 'Holy Bible' since that is really the only thing that I can 'hope' for as far as happiness and fulfillment, so that after I die, I can be relieved that we are not here as a 'mere' means for reproduction and ...well, that's really it. We really don't care about each other, and we are dying as we are here, and I certainly do not want to think that I came from nothing, because then I would be nothing for nothing to nothing.....haha...
words can sure screw up a 'nothing' mind!

At least, if there is no God in ur minds, I still think that we need to clean up our acts.
Logically, I think we can live peacefully. Unfortunately, that would not be logically possible, since, again, we are nothing.

god, i hate athiests....
god, i hate philosophy...
god, why am i using the world 'god'
Oh yea, because GOD is everything.......
have a happy afterlife, or have a happy 'void'

P.S. if God does exist, let's hope he doesnt' exist for YOur sake,.....
the fires of hell, from what I can imagine, are hotter than the sun????
ha ha.....

Sorry to tell you this, but your logic statements are completely human and petty. Any logic created by the human mind is DWARFED by God. God does not follow logic as we know it. It does not exist for Him. Such as the square circle! The definition of a circle was created by man and therefore is only definable by human logic. Who's not to say the I could draw a square and call it a circle? By human definition it would not be a circle but by God's, who's not to say it isn't a circle? Why is a circle a circle? Because humans defined it that way. What if humans decided to change the definition completely? It would not change the object itself, but only make a square a circle and a circle a square by "definition". Therefore your whole argument would have to be thrown out to window. He is all-powerful, but by the puny human mind, a square-circle cannot exist. Or can it? If I were to draw a square and call it a circle, am I all-powerful now? NO! I simply created a square-circle. By my def. it is a circle, by your def., a square!
My point in all this is that the human mind cannot comprehend infinite beings and we cannot grasp the concept of "time" not existing. We are TOO logic of creatures. Our brains just cannot compute this information. Therefore, why must and all-powerful god need explaining when we cannot even explain the beginning of our own universe?! It cannot be done! But, if you do want to look at it logically: 1) matter cannot form from nothing 2) matter has a beginning 3) our universe had a beginning and a creator 4) God does not consist of matter 5) God does not need a beginning.
That is more logical than your explanation. If you don't think so, look at it closer!

Dude, if your logic is that God can create a square circle, then you have placed God in the category of Things That Cannot Exist. It's the final line when you start saying, "Yes I know God is illogical, but it is above logic"... it's ludicrous. There is no God, dude, go deal with it.

Your step number 5 shows that you believe at one thing exists without needing a beginning, a cause. I believe that thing is the universe itself. Don't confuse the Big Bang with the beginning of everything, just the beginning of spacetime.

How do you know enough to tell someone that God does not exist? I, personally, am a Christian and stumbled on to this web page out of curiosity. I do believe in God to the fullest. Though I cannot PROVE that he exists, I still believe in Him. My question for you is can you prove that He doesn't? And if you cannot, how is it possible that you can go around stating your opinions as facts and telling people that He does not exist? I can voice my opinions on what I believe, but until I have solid facts about something it is not my place to tell someone that something or someone does or does not exist.

Count the assumptions that theists such as yourself have in "God", some are similar to those that the atheist has in "everything". However, on top of that, theists through psychological projection have "faith" in a host of illogical, unproven assumptions. Many of the common ones are listed here:


Logic is an essential property of God. God cannot create a square circle, because a square circle is a logical impossibility. God cannot lie. God cannot swear on a being higher than himself (Hebrews 6). The reason for these things is that god cannot contradict his own nature. God's nature includes that he is a rational being. This is not in any way a limitation on His power. He is still the most powerful being imaginable. Without logic being an essential part of His being, he would be less powerful.

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